Why Humor Belongs in the Workplace | Steve Cody & Clayton Fletcher

Transcript prepared from the original recording and lightly edited for readability. Timestamps have been omitted.

Kendra Prospero: I am thrilled to welcome back Steve Cody, founder of PepperComm, alongside his esteemed Chief Comedy Officer. Yes, a real title, Clayton Fletcher. Steve built his company and a winning workplace culture by having humor as a core value. Clayton spent 13 years at PepperComm, where he taught lots of nervous business people how to get a room to laugh on purpose. Steve and Clayton are here to talk about their book, The ROI of LOL, and how introducing humor, stand-up, and improvisational comedy into the workplace can break down generational barriers, can foster creativity, and build a genuine culture of caring. Steve and Clayton, welcome back to How I Turned the Corner.

Steve Cody: Thanks for having us back, Kendra. A few people do.

Clayton Fletcher: Very nice to meet you, Kendra. Thanks for having us on.

Kendra Prospero: You bet! So, so many changes, Steve, in the last 3 years. I mean, it sounds like a new job, a new book, I mean, congratulations on lots of neat things happening. Can you just give us a quick update on what's happened since we talked last?

Steve Cody: Yeah, I mean, I felt the time was right to pass the baton to a new generation of management at PepperComm. I'm still very involved from a consultative standpoint with PepperComm and our parent company, Ruder Finn, but I've also gotten very involved in higher education. So I sit on a couple of boards at my alma mater, Northeastern University. And as you know, the college and university world is under intense pressure, so injecting laughter and humor, especially in some of the board meetings, has been a welcomed relief, for some of those directors who are under tremendous strain. So, yeah, now I'm now splitting my time between public relations, my first love. Higher education, and doing my best to inject humor and laughter in a world that sorely lacks each.

Kendra Prospero: Hmm, totally. And how about you, Clayton? What's your story, your background, and how did you meet this guy?

Clayton Fletcher: Yes. So, I'm a professional stand-up comedian. I've been performing in stages… on stages around the world for 20-plus years now, and I guess about 15 years ago, there was a young man who was, performing…

Steve Cody: I was middle-aged even then, Clayton.

Clayton Fletcher: For the very first time at a comedy club where I was serving as MC for a, debut show, so everybody that was performing except for me was absolute beginners. But I encouraged one of these comedians, aspiring comedians, to continue, because I thought he had talent. Little did I know that he was a CEO of a PR firm, or what a PR firm even was at that point, having spent my whole life and my whole career in the entertainment field. I had never been inside an office building until the first time I came to work with Steve on his material. At his office, and then a few years later, we started teaching, other people, including employees at PepperComm, what Steve was learning about, by, studying stand-up comedy skills and training with me. Because those skills were actually improving. his job performance as a PR executive. So, we saw immediately that there were things that you could learn from a comedian, and so we've been sharing those things ever since, and we even wrote a book about it.

Steve Cody: Yeah, and I learned two things, Kendra, from my two years under Coach Fletcher's tutelage. A, I'd never make it as a comedian. But B, all of the skills that he was teaching me were immediately applicable to the workplace. And I said to him, Clayton, we are going to roll this out throughout PepperComm. And, we started with my management committee, and if looks could kill, I wouldn't be with you today. But after they went through it, they said, this is awesome, let's do it. So, we've been doing it ever since. We have another session coming up on Wednesday with 25 new employees. We do it for clients and companies that have heard about us randomly and ask us to do it. And, every organization has a different challenge. every, every program we put together is unique and tailored to, address those challenges, and it's been… it's been a labor of love, and boy, when HarperCollins called and said, would you guys like to co-author a book? Didn't take long for either of us to say, yes, absolutely.

Kendra Prospero: Yeah, that's amazing. Well, so… so, let me… let me kind of get the elephant in the room, maybe, out for our listeners. I mean, I… I think most CEOs would… would hear humor at work, and they'd be like, they'd probably, like, walk me out of the room because I'm HR and I'm the cop, right? Or that's how they perceive HR, is being the no people and the cop. But I think ultimately why that is the case is because they think it's either, like, forced fun, or maybe a lawsuit. And there's just this sort of extreme side of how they feel about humor. Where is the actual line? And, like, what does… maybe, I mean, what does bad workplace humor look like, or better, like, better, what's good workplace humor? I think we all know what that cringe-worthy workplace humor is, but what.

Steve Cody: Yeah.

Kendra Prospero: humor.

Steve Cody: I'll let Clayton address the good workplace humor part of the question. I can address the CEO reluctance. It's fear. It's fear of the unknown. It's fear of losing control. You know, many organizations are still very much top-down, you know, profit-over-people oriented, so they don't necessarily take the time to understand the profound impact that, humor and laughter, can inject, and the barriers that can be broken down, the collaboration, the creativity, and the productivity that can result, direct result. And we've measured time and again over the years the impact of healthy workplace culture, but it's, it's first and foremost the fear. And yeah, the lawsuit thing is is addressed sometimes up front, and I can tell you in the 16 or 17 plus years, because we conduct so much due diligence in advance to understand what is and what is not appropriate to that particular organization's workplace culture, knock on wood, we haven't even had a close call. And Clayton's very, very careful in terms of advising. participants, whether it's stand-up, improv, or sketch comedy, what they should and should not address. Over to you, Clayton.

Clayton Fletcher: Yeah, so most of these CEOs who are afraid to try comedy, and they're afraid of a lawsuit, and they're afraid of this, that, and the other, try to lock HR out of the room, are the same CEOs who are saying, if only I could find some way to create a better, stronger team, and to form a healthy corporate culture. And so, they're afraid of… humor and laughter at work, but they also want people to feel good about coming to the office. So, that's the first disconnect we see. And, you know, what good workplace humor looks like, in my opinion, is when you're laughing, but you're also learning something about me. So, what we do in the sessions that Steve and I co-lead Is we try to get people to tell the truth about what's going on. in their lives, you know, maybe something you don't get a chance to talk about at work normally, but maybe I have twin daughters, and they're both allergic to peanuts, so we're gonna make jokes about that. Or maybe, you know, something that your wife said to you last week when you came home from work that you can share with the office and make everybody laugh, and we start to see commonalities. Among people. And really, that's what happens in the comedy club every night, too. The things that I say on stage that get the biggest laughs are things that make people say. I can relate to that. I know what he's talking about, this makes sense to me, but maybe I never thought of it that way before. And so that's what we're really looking for. And obviously, you set guardrails at the beginning, you know, stay out of the bedroom. let's not do any toilet humor, right, at work, and things like that, and just make sure that everybody's on the same page. But to be fair, Kendra. Every company is different, and what one company might consider inappropriate, another company might have no problem with. So, that's something we have to explore with Each group individually.

Steve Cody: Right, and the beauty, Kendra of what Clayton and I are doing, from my perspective, is that he's the comedian and I'm the business executive. So he'll explain, you know, how comedy works, how to apply it, how to put together your storytelling, and then I'll give real-world examples of how I've applied different techniques and different skills to, you know, hype, you know, not hype, encourage more more collaboration, creativity, overcome objections, and what I excel at, because of my performing days, is dealing with silence and using silence to your advantage. Just about all of my storytelling and joke telling is met with profound silence, and in many new business presentations, I've been met with profound silence. And I know, thanks to the coaching from Clayton, exactly how to Leverage that to my advantage.

Kendra Prospero: So, can you share some examples of where you've seen it make a big impact in your business?

Steve Cody: Nope. Yes, of course. With PepperComm and Clayton and I, Clayton and I, this was one of our high points, but… Crain's New York Business named us among 960 competitors in every conceivable category, the single best workplace in all of New York City. And that was, that was judged by independent executives from a wide variety of industries. And it's really because, the leader, i.e. me, I hate to use that word, but I embrace self-deprecating humor, and I think self-deprecating humor is the keystone to everything that we've achieved, and it's certainly what we teach leaders. And, you know, business people at all levels, you know, it's don't take yourself too seriously, take your work very seriously, take your customers and clients seriously, but boy, if you can share your foibles, your faults, your failures, you will engender immediate response from your employees and loyalty from your employees. So, I'm a big, big fan, and I think, you know, looking back, you know, from You know, in history, I mean, Lincoln, big self-deprecating humor guy. Reagan, same thing. JFK, same thing. Even George W. Bush, same thing. Obama, same thing. But there's a sad lack of self-deprecating humor among leaders in both the private and public sectors today.

Kendra Prospero: What would you add to that, Clayton? Anything that you saw from your angle, that you watched Steve do and went, huh, that really worked?

Clayton Fletcher: Yeah, for sure. I mean, even the thing that we're going to be doing this Wednesday, I'm not sure when this podcast will be released, but Wednesday of this week that we're recording this podcast, we are going to be doing a comedy training session for PepperComm and Ruder Finn employees, and I can assure you that at the beginning, they are going to be nervous. It's mostly junior people, like, newer hires, and they really don't know what they're in for, and we're going to see how When we start to learn about how telling the truth can endear people to you, and engender a better sense of camaraderie and team building that happens when we all laugh together, and we're just going to watch them become more comfortable with one another. And so you're going to see the power of laughter in action. on Wednesday, I'm really excited to do that. Those sessions are always a lot of fun. And then at the end, we'll talk about, you know, how are we going to use the same skills at work tomorrow, right? Whether it's, dealing with each other, or with handling clients, or whatever the case may be, like, even, like, your higher-ups, how you can build rapport with your CEO, even. through a healthy sense of humor, and a good sense of what type of humor is appropriate and when. And so, yeah, that's what it's really all about. And Steve has done a great job of developing sort of a, I might be the leader, and he's even reluctant to even use that term, but he is the leader, and he's also very quick to point out his own flaws. And so, in doing so, he humanizes himself and makes himself more Likable and charismatic, and those things are very important for people who want loyalty and, you know, just good vibes at work, and that's really what it's about.

Steve Cody: I could share a specific example with you, Kendra. We worked with one of the big four accounting firms, and they were reconvening their entire global sales and marketing team in their colossal conference center in Orlando. First time, all of these people were getting back together, you know, post-COVID, And some people had been hired during COVID, some people had been there 30, 40, 50 years, some were from Germany, some were from the Deep South, some were from, you know, San Francisco. We had every conceivable divide, and it was our… it was our mission, it was our assignment to break down all of the barriers, real or perceived, between generations, between different levels of management, between geographies, between political beliefs, and we used all three things that we talk about in the book, stand-up, improv, and sketch comedy, and we did, the client did tracking for six. 8 weeks out, and productivity skyrocketed. Collaboration was the number one factor that, you know, superseded all of the others, but we achieved, in spades, every one of the client's goals in terms of why they set aside a full day for their entire global sales and marketing team to experience us. So, and that's just one of many case studies that we've got. One of the really fascinating things, and Clayton can speak to this, is that we do really well with very serious organizations, but those that you would think were really cool and really hip. they've said to us, oh, that's just our external perception. We don't take… we don't… we do not laugh, we do not smile inside. And we had one infamous case, if you want to address it in Las Vegas, Clayton, where we thought we had a major assignment, and why don't you take it from there? It's really… it's a great story.

Clayton Fletcher: Well, Steve is, referencing Zappos, which is a company that brought us in. We flew across the country to meet with them in Prospero… Let me ask.

Kendra Prospero: What year was this? I'm just curious.

Clayton Fletcher: I mean, it was a long time ago, maybe 2010, 2011, I guess? Right, exactly.

Kendra Prospero: post-2011.

Steve Cody: Yeah. And they really were seen as cutting-edge, cool, you know, the hippest organization, you know, in the U.S, if not the world. Go ahead, Clayton.

Clayton Fletcher: Right, and their CEO, Tony Hsieh, had a best-selling book out about, you know, culture and, you know, sort of groundbreaking stuff about letting people feel free at work and all this stuff. So anyway, they bring us out there, and they're promising us you know, an engagement and a great meeting, so Steve and I hopped a plane, we go all the way over there, and well, they basically just blew us off when we got there, and… They gave us a copy of the book, and a quick tour of the office, and sent us on our way. And so, we've learned that so many companies that appear to have this type of Culture and attitude. and sort of philosophy of what a good, healthy workplace is, they end up not walking the walk.

Steve Cody: Yeah.

Clayton Fletcher: We keep them too, and so…

Steve Cody: Yeah, we thought, we thought, I mean, I'm sorry, Clayton, every single insurance company embraces humor in their advertising, but not a single one of them will let us have a 10-minute conversation with them, because they don't smile, they don't laugh, their internal culture does not reflect their external positioning in the marketplace.

Kendra Prospero: Yeah. No, it's interesting, that validates my own perspective as well. I get it more from the anecdotal side in that, like, I'll hear from job seekers about a culture that sounds amazing, you know, from the external, and then I get to hear this seamy underbelly of what's really going on. And it's like, oh, man, that just bummed me out so much. I knew this about Zappos, because I started Turning the Corner in 2011, and it was right about the time that I think Tony's book came out. So it was a big, you know, hit a big splash, and I remember reading it and just going… I don't know, I don't believe it. And sure enough, you know, we talk to job seekers, we're like, yeah, this is pretty out of control internally, like, nobody knows what's going on. But anyway, enough of that. But that's really interesting. So, I want to go back to this vulnerability piece, though, because I'm always, I'm a member of an organization that we… are… found… have found as leaders, that the vulnerability really does build a lot of trust. And I'm kind of curious if you can explain how humor is a vulnerable thing. Because I think of vulnerability as, like, oh, I've had such a tough day, and I'm gonna be real about my cash flow, and I'm gonna da-da-da-da, but it sounds like humor has another layer, and maybe with a little bit more dopamine in it, you know, for kind of generating some vulnerability. What is that?

Steve Cody: Clayton, you're best equipped to answer that question. Why don't you start, and I'll provide color commentary.

Clayton Fletcher: Right, so if you look at any of the great comedians, you know, whether it's Wanda Sykes, or Nate Bargatze. Sebastian Maniscalco, like, anyone who's really killing it in the comedy world. Kevin Hart, who has a season 2 of his hit Netflix TV show coming out. In a few months. All of these people have that in common. They're all very vulnerable. You know, in order to really win over audiences as performers, we have to put ourselves on the line, be willing to share the good, bad, and the ugly. So, you know, like, if you're known for being A neat freak who's always on time, but you also sometimes forget important things. In comedy, I would say, let's talk about how you forget important things, right? The flaws are where the laughs are, because that's more relatable. Right? If I got a 1600 on my SAT and I graduated summa cum laude from Harvard, I can't exactly, use that to win over an audience in terms of relatability. But as soon as I go up on stage and I say, listen guys, I got a problem. people sit up in their chairs, they're like, alright, let's hear, you know, what's wrong. That's what really bonds us together, is the shared experience of life not being perfect, and how a sense of humor is required to survive that.

Steve Cody: Spot on, and those executives who are willing to share their failures, their vulnerabilities, they are the ones who engender the most loyalty. Who have, you know, great people surrounding them, willing to go above and beyond, because this man or woman has really… have really bared their soul in terms of, you know, significant setbacks in either their personal or professional lives. And I think that is intrinsic to a healthy workplace culture. So, vulnerability… you know, in the right way, you know, said at the right time, communicated in the right way, is fundamental to a healthy workplace culture. And just take a look at, you know, all of the mass layoffs, the heavy-handed way in which, you know, the emails were delivered, people were just asked to show up at 8 AM and hand over their laptops, I mean. There's such distrust between the employee and the employer nowadays, that if someone at the senior level can… really display his or her vulnerability, they will attract the best and the brightest. And AI replacing jobs and all these other problems notwithstanding, most organizations still want to attract the best and the brightest. And where we can help is with those senior executives to help them explore their own vulnerability and how to leverage that in the workplace. I think it's a powerful tool.

Kendra Prospero: Yeah, I think it's really interesting, and it's a new idea to me, because I haven't ever really connected that humor is vulnerable. But it is.

Steve Cody: Yes, absolutely. When you go up on stage, whether it's at the Westside Comedy Club, where we'll be on Wednesday, and, you know, I talk about, you know, some major failing that I had, or someone Clayton, or one of the other performers. the audience just embraces that. They love the fact that you're opening up and talking about the fact that whatever, you can't get out of bed in the morning sometimes, or, you know, you've overcome this major obstacle in your personal or professional career. That led to Clayton's earlier point, it humanizes you in a way that is just profound and has immediate effects when we always ask people what, at the end of our sessions, what will you bring back to the office tomorrow? how will your behavior change? What did you take away from today? And we make sure that they understand that… and we always… this is another point that we did not bring up. It is critical, whenever we do our training, that a senior executive is not only supportive, but preferably is the first person to participate. That's… that is fundamentally… that's intrinsic to the success of the overall experience.

Kendra Prospero: I can see that. So, you know, we talked… we talked last time about the kind of widening that we are experiencing now between really leadership, and then the workforce, and that, you know, humor is a way to bridge the gap, was one of those ways. I think it's also a way to maybe bridge to the younger generations, which… I don't like labeling them, you know, as Zoomers or Alpha or whatever, because I really think it's more about their stage in life than their actual date they were born. And, like, you know, the young people in our world right now, which are Zoomers and Alpha, they just don't have enough context and experience and all that to really navigate things. Like, and we didn't either. when we were in our 20s. And, but I do think that because of… AI and recording devices and the Me Too movement, which I think was a beautiful, wonderful movement, all of that has also made people feel really afraid to use humor. You just mentioned before we got going here today about a study that just came out. Can you kind of recap that and tie it into What I just brought up, as well.

Steve Cody: Sure, so it's a Harris poll. It was released either Friday or this morning, and it was a survey of 1,000 employees. 63% of them say their work persona differs greatly from who they are day to day. 80% have changed their personality to fit workplace culture, and 83% believe employees who do not conform to office culture do not stay with a company long. That's a failure on the part of those organizations who've made these employees, and these are huge numbers, huge percentages. They are afraid to be themselves. I hate the expression, bring their full selves, or bring your full self. Never really understood that. I mean, I know what it means, but they're afraid to be themselves. They're, you know, and that's because senior management, they're afraid of being their full selves. So they don't want any signs of weakness, et cetera, vulnerability in the workforce, and that's just not resonating. So you're getting half a person showing up to your organization. Think of the productivity impact of someone only, you know, oh, I can't say this, or I can't do that, because I'm not sure how it's going to be responded to by my direct report or senior management. Forget about productivity, forget about collaboration. It's almost like you're producing a generation of robots. Clayton, I don't know if you have additional thoughts on that.

Clayton Fletcher: Yeah, I really do. I mean, the idea that using my sense of humor is a sign of weakness is backwards. I mean, it takes a lot of strength. and a lot of confidence, and a lot of fearlessness to take the risk of making a joke. If I say something, I'm trusting you to understand where I'm coming from, to get the comic idea behind the joke that I'm making, to accept that the, appropriateness of what I'm saying, right? So we're taking a lot of risks in doing that, and that's not a sign weakness at all. I mean, that's a powerful position for a leader, a CEO, to take, you know, to say, look. I'm going to be my authentic self. I know Steve and I really equally hate that expression, but if you're telling people to be… Your authentic self at work. And then, in practice, when they show up, they feel like they have to hide their sense of humor, which for most of us is actually a pretty big part of who we really are. Then that's where the failure is coming from. I mean.

Steve Cody: Right, and I think, I think, I think also, sorry, Clayton, it's not just hiding their sense of humor, it's not feeling that they can talk about the fact that They're… they suffer from insomnia, and they got… they didn't get any sleep this past weekend, so, you know, they're gonna have some extra cups of coffee, but they're gonna do their best. So they can't… they don't feel comfortable opening up about things that have impacted them. personally, because they fear for their jobs. They fear that that will not be responded to by their direct reports or senior management, so it's not just laughter, it's their full… it's their full selves, which I… I hate the expression, but they are afraid to talk about, you know, their personal lives, because they're not sure how it's going to be responded to. And that is not an open workplace, that is not a healthy workplace. That's a workplace that as soon as there are other job opportunities, those people are gonna go elsewhere.

Kendra Prospero: For sure. Yeah, those are definitely environments. Sorry, go ahead.

Clayton Fletcher: Sorry, Kendra, I just wanted to tack on one more, thought here. What we're really… talking about is charisma. And there's a science behind charisma. Charisma, of course, is the quality that makes people want to be around you, they can't take their eyes off of you, whatever. All great performers have this charisma. And what it really comes from is Being able to share your truth. in an authentic and emotional way, that you're not hiding your emotions. So, of course, it's essential in comedy, but, you know, Steve's absolutely right. It's not just about comedy. I mean, the fundamental question our book seeks to answer Is, what are the things that comedians know that business leaders should learn? And, you know, how to develop your personal charisma is right at the top of the list.

Steve Cody: And it's not just leaders, it's employees at any level within an organization that, you know, is comfortable enough to encourage their employees to express themselves, to allow those employees to express themselves. So it's a combination of things, Kendra.

Kendra Prospero: Hmm. Well, I think it's amazing, and I think more and more of us need that. I mean, I… I'm just dreaming right now about this group that I'm a part of, having you guys come out and talk to our group, because we talk so much about vulnerability, but like I said earlier, have never really connected that back to humor and.

Steve Cody: Well, just as long as you don't pull a Zappos on us, Kendra.

Kendra Prospero: You'll like all these people, they're our people.

Steve Cody: Okay.

Kendra Prospero: I promise. Okay. Yeah, so how… what is… what is the best way for people to get in touch with you? Like, what… tell us a little bit about the workshops you run, and… Sure. …and what are your ideal clients like?

Steve Cody: Clayton, why don't you take… talk about how best to contact us, and I'll talk about the clients.

Clayton Fletcher: Right, yeah, so, I mean, I have a website, ClaytonFletcher.com, people can certainly reach us that way. Our website, I mean, our workshops, rather, are, you know, we start off by talking about that question. What are the things that you want to learn from a comedian? And usually. The ideas are, you know, how to handle rejection, how to create content. You know, how to be a better storyteller. Obviously, storytelling is a huge, buzzword in, corporate America today. And, you know, just build rapport, right? So those are kind of the key… areas, and we'll talk about how comedians do it, and then we'll talk about how you can use those same skills at work. But somewhere in between, we actually have all the participants volunteer to take the stage and make their own comedy debut for a minute or two, and just get a sense of what it's like To, be in that position, and… what happens when that fight or flight kicks in, and I have to be funny, and everybody's staring at me, and I'm under pressure, and how to use that nervous energy and convert it into kinetic energy, and make it something that you can really, you know, create something wonderful from. We can, you know, work on together, and Steve and I give, immediate feedback to the participants, and let's say, here's what you're doing well, here's what you need to work on, and, you know, we send them on their way.

Steve Cody: Yeah, I was just gonna add, Kendra, that if your audience would like to see case studies, they could go to my firm's website, which is www.peppercomm.com, like salt and pepper, named in honor of my late black lab, Pepper. And as far as the types of organizations, it's really industry agnostic. We do a lot of work in post-merger integration when there are two cultures, two very different cultures. And senior management wants them to get into lockstep, or be in lockstep as soon as possible. That's a typical challenge we find. Or, they, the organization may be changing its branding and its positioning in the marketplace, and they need to make sure that all of the different employees are also in lockstep. So, so a lot of the, The method to the madness is using humor to get people to understand the new direction, or the new culture, and really use humor and collaboration, improv, teamwork, etc, to get them to that endpoint. So, a lot of different, you know, challenges in a lot of different industries. But typically, it's because of change, some kind of fundamental change that the company, you know, small, medium, large, is going through. That's typically when we hear from prospective clients.

Kendra Prospero: That's amazing. Well, we'll put all that information in the show notes, too, because I think this is a really compelling workshop that a lot of people will be interested in bringing to their group, so I really appreciate you going through that. Well, I think that's a perfect place for us to actually stop and end here, so thank you so much to both of you for this very enlightening conversation. I rarely grow myself after I do these interviews, just because it's kind of my world, but I learned something new today, so thank you.

Steve Cody: The pleasure… well, I can't speak for Clayton, but the pleasure was all mine, for sure, Kendra. I mean, I'm a big fan, we've known each other now 3 or 4 years, and you've been very supportive, and I would hop on the next Greyhound bus out to the mountains. to, to interact with your, your group, so thank you so much for the opportunity.

Kendra Prospero: Thank you!

Clayton Fletcher: I think you've gone. Ditto, Kendra, thank you so much for having us. I'm glad you could learn something, and now the next time you watch a comedian, look for that vulnerability and see, like, what an important role it plays in developing rapport with audiences.

Kendra Prospero: Yeah, I'm going to. That's great. Well, thank you again.